John Armstrong and Devin Rose

I have been unable to get this comment to upload properly at John Armstrong's blog, so I offer it hear. It is a reflection on the important discussion taking place between John and the Catholic apologist Devin Rose.

This is a rich and necessary discussion that is taking place in the comment section and as a result of John and Devin's genuine and honest engagement in trying to speak the "truth in love" to each other. I must also say that it is a painful discussion to have as it brings us all into the wounds of Christ's body that have festered and developed for centuries. But leaving those woulnds and stopping the conversation won't make the wounds go away. We must continue to have these conversations and draw on the rich resources of our faith journeys, the Scriptures and the traditions and teachings that our communities have developed. For me, as someone in communion with Rome but still very much not a "Roman" Catholic (sometimes I think of myself as a Vatican II Protestant!!) I want to say a few things directly from my perspective: 1) I want to strongly affirm and add my voice to this section from John: "Yet in the practice of post-Vatican II ecumenism, and the teaching and practice of the last five popes, this is not what I see nor is it what I have experienced in my thousands of hours of conversation with Catholics. The lone exception to my experience usually comes from converts who have left Protestantism and seem to feel a deep need to do a kind of apologetics that shows why Rome is the "true church." Through this approach they conclude that everyone else is outside the true church though somehow we are all mysteriously inside that church in an incomplete way that keeps us, the "separated brothers," from the Table. But even here I have scores of Catholic friends who do not adopt Rose's view. These are not untaught or rebellious (liberal) Catholics. Conservative Catholic apologists take the supposed high ground by using the official teaching of the church on most matters but they seem to miss that there is a continued unfolding of what their church is also saying about unity with non-Catholics, especially since Vatican II."  2) I want to remind all of us of something that is deeply symbolic to me of the deeper affections that exist among Catholics for evangelicals, and evangelicals for Catholics, by recalling the fact that in the providence of God the very day that John Paul II was elected as Pope Billy Graham was preaching, at the invitation of a bishop in Poland, in a leading Cathedral in Poland. The bishop who invited him to preach was none other than Karol Wojtyla, who became John Paul II. The affection and sense of shared mission that these two giants of Christianity shared existed throughout John Paul's papacy and concluded with striking observations by Billy Graham upon John Paul's death. These two, and their decades-long relationship, offer us a vision of Vatican II ecumenism that is hard to reconcile with Devin's characterization of Roman Catholic teaching. 3) I think that John is jumping to quickly into the question of shared communion. I think that there are important steps and important understandings that must develop between Protestants and Catholics before we can arrive at that discussion. 4) Pope Benedict's recognition of Protestants as being "ecclessial communities" is an underappreciated step with rich potential for discussion and engagement. Because it was stated in the context of his refusal to call Protestants "churches" in the classical sense, his statement was viewed as a step back for ecumenical relations. But I think rightly understood it is a step forward and a step in keeping with Vatican II. I would challenge Devin and others of his perspective to ask themselves if their theology/apologetics allows them to affirm Protestants as being ecclessial communities separated from Rome. I would also ask them to reread key ecumenical statements of Vatican II and John Paul II and demonstrate more clearly how their emphasis on submission to the magisterium as a starting point for unity squares with those documents.